In conversation with Nina Gibbes and Kaitlyn Chai
This conversation-style interview looks at the practices of three different graphic designers brought together by their common goal of questioning the inequities and lack of representation because of their gender, and how they collectively are able to challenge the dominant voices of design discourses to be a more inclusive landscape for design practice. They talk about how this has led to various opportunities within their design practice.
Question
How long have you known you wanted to be a designer, and what led you to your studies?
Nina
I was always interested in art during high school. I think that is probably the subject I did the best in, in high school, visual art. Then I went and did a bachelor’s degree in fine arts. I majored in printmaking and always had an interest in print and paper based medium. Print production had always been a part of my creative interests. And then, I finished my fine art degree and I moved to the United States and worked in New York City for about five years. Doing work for different contemporary art spaces and galleries. At that stage, I was working more in a communications capacity, writing press releases and sort of helping to produce contemporary art exhibitions. Then I was also at that time tasked with having to design the exhibition, print and digital material for those shows. That’s sort of how I discovered graphic design.
Began in more of a self-taught capacity, I was about 25 at that time. I’m 30 now, so I sort of started to take my interest in design quite seriously when I turned 25. I was doing some night courses at a design school called Pratt Institute. Then when I moved back to Australia, I continued to pursue my interest in graphic design, I worked for another gallery there in Sydney.
Then I made a proper transition into working as a designer after that and decided that I needed formal training. So, I enrolled in the master’s program at RMIT, which I am about to finish in 3 weeks’ time.
Kaitlyn
My experience hasn’t been that extensive, but similar. Since I was kid, I kind of always knew that I wanted to be working in a creative field. So, when I graduated high school, my plan was actually to study fashion design in the United States. But at that point, I was 15 and my dad didn’t really want to send me overseas that young. So, he made me take a graphic design course back in Malaysia and I ended up actually really liking it, and the rest is history, I guess. That’s what led me here.
I was always interested in art during high school. I think that is probably the subject I did the best in, in high school, visual art. Then I went and did a bachelor’s degree in fine arts. I majored in printmaking and always had an interest in print and paper based medium. Print production had always been a part of my creative interests. And then, I finished my fine art degree and I moved to the United States and worked in New York City for about five years. Doing work for different contemporary art spaces and galleries. At that stage, I was working more in a communications capacity, writing press releases and sort of helping to produce contemporary art exhibitions. Then I was also at that time tasked with having to design the exhibition, print and digital material for those shows. That’s sort of how I discovered graphic design.
Began in more of a self-taught capacity, I was about 25 at that time. I’m 30 now, so I sort of started to take my interest in design quite seriously when I turned 25. I was doing some night courses at a design school called Pratt Institute. Then when I moved back to Australia, I continued to pursue my interest in graphic design, I worked for another gallery there in Sydney.
Then I made a proper transition into working as a designer after that and decided that I needed formal training. So, I enrolled in the master’s program at RMIT, which I am about to finish in 3 weeks’ time.
Kaitlyn
My experience hasn’t been that extensive, but similar. Since I was kid, I kind of always knew that I wanted to be working in a creative field. So, when I graduated high school, my plan was actually to study fashion design in the United States. But at that point, I was 15 and my dad didn’t really want to send me overseas that young. So, he made me take a graphic design course back in Malaysia and I ended up actually really liking it, and the rest is history, I guess. That’s what led me here.
At what stage are you in your Master’s studies?
Nina
I think I already kind of answered that in the last question, but I’m about to finish my Master’s degree, I’m in the final four weeks of the program. So, I’ll be graduating after this semester concludes.
Kaitlyn
I’m in the first semester of my second year, so I’ll be done by the end of this year.
I think I already kind of answered that in the last question, but I’m about to finish my Master’s degree, I’m in the final four weeks of the program. So, I’ll be graduating after this semester concludes.
Kaitlyn
I’m in the first semester of my second year, so I’ll be done by the end of this year.
Are you currently working in your field? If so, what do you do?
Nina
Yes, at the moment I’m working in a freelance capacity. Because my previous professional work experience has been in contemporary arts communities and organisations, a lot of my freelance work as a designer services those industries. So, I do a lot of work for exhibitions and publication design, and I’ve done some work for different musicians as well. So that’s really kind of the areas that I have a focus in at the moment. More recently have been doing work that is related to research, workshops and just different ways of connecting with communities and spaces. That’s sort of become more incorporated into my practice as a designer.
Kaitlyn
I also work in a freelance capacity. I’ve been doing this for the last couple of years, but not very frequently. For my practice, I don’t really have a specific disciplinary focus, I would say. Because very early on when I started working, I found that trying to label myself as a certain type of designer — (like graphic or web designer or illustrator), didn’t really work for me, cause I felt it was quite limiting for my practice. But recently I’ve done a lot more freelance work. I’ve been doing more commissioned illustration work, and a lot of editorial and publication design. That’s sort of where my practice sits at the moment.
Yes, at the moment I’m working in a freelance capacity. Because my previous professional work experience has been in contemporary arts communities and organisations, a lot of my freelance work as a designer services those industries. So, I do a lot of work for exhibitions and publication design, and I’ve done some work for different musicians as well. So that’s really kind of the areas that I have a focus in at the moment. More recently have been doing work that is related to research, workshops and just different ways of connecting with communities and spaces. That’s sort of become more incorporated into my practice as a designer.
Kaitlyn
I also work in a freelance capacity. I’ve been doing this for the last couple of years, but not very frequently. For my practice, I don’t really have a specific disciplinary focus, I would say. Because very early on when I started working, I found that trying to label myself as a certain type of designer — (like graphic or web designer or illustrator), didn’t really work for me, cause I felt it was quite limiting for my practice. But recently I’ve done a lot more freelance work. I’ve been doing more commissioned illustration work, and a lot of editorial and publication design. That’s sort of where my practice sits at the moment.
I’d love to know about your individual design practice? What mediums do you dabble in?
Nina
More recently I’ve become more interested in print processes again, so I’ve noticed my background training in printmaking is really having quite a strong influence on my practice as a designer at the moment. So, I’ve been doing a lot of experimenting with printing out posters and scanning and reworking them using a Risograph printer, which is actually the printer in the Master’s Studio at the moment. I do still have a digital focus, but I’m more interested in a print medium and how that can then be translated back into a digital space as well.
Kaitlyn
Like I mentioned before, I don’t like to limit myself in that sense. Mostly the work I do sits a lot in print design as well, because I find that I just like making things sometimes, it’s really nice to be hands on with the things that you make. But I also do stuff in the digital space, so it’s a mix of both. But, a specific medium that I recently have been trying to learn, I guess it would be improving my skills in animation and 3D design, which I think would be a cool addition to my practice.
More recently I’ve become more interested in print processes again, so I’ve noticed my background training in printmaking is really having quite a strong influence on my practice as a designer at the moment. So, I’ve been doing a lot of experimenting with printing out posters and scanning and reworking them using a Risograph printer, which is actually the printer in the Master’s Studio at the moment. I do still have a digital focus, but I’m more interested in a print medium and how that can then be translated back into a digital space as well.
Kaitlyn
Like I mentioned before, I don’t like to limit myself in that sense. Mostly the work I do sits a lot in print design as well, because I find that I just like making things sometimes, it’s really nice to be hands on with the things that you make. But I also do stuff in the digital space, so it’s a mix of both. But, a specific medium that I recently have been trying to learn, I guess it would be improving my skills in animation and 3D design, which I think would be a cool addition to my practice.
Can you describe your ideal brief?
Nina
My ideal brief would be obviously something where you’re working quite closely with the client or the audience that you’re making work for. I really like to involve people in a really personal way, so that they help kind of push that ideations process as well. So, an ideal brief would be definitely be involving as some sort of collaboration between me and the client. And I also find briefs that I’ve had before that have been really great are the ones with clients that are open to taking visual risks with things. There are certain projects, sometimes they feel that the stakeholder tends to be a little bit nervous about being adventurous with graphic design, and it’s always the more rewarding briefs that actually give you a lot of creative freedom to be experimental, so those are the dream ones.
Kaitlyn
I really like to work on briefs where the client and I, collaborate closely together to design the project. I don’t really like it when someone just hands me a brief and they just expect the end product a few weeks down the road. It’s like we don’t really talk in between. I tend not to work for clients like that and try not to take on briefs like that. I would just really like to work on more paid work that align with my personal practice and other curiosities. That would be really awesome, because currently a lot of the projects I’m doing are kind of… well essentially free in the sense that i don't always get paid for the full number of hours I spend on a project and it would be nice to get paid more to do like stuff that I really like — but that’s quite unrealistic. I do definitely prefer working with collaborative clients. Similar to Nina, we all have the same dreams as designers. Like having a space to express creatively, take risks in a sense and not work on something that’s just overly commercial or safe in the industry.
Nina
Yeah, and just to add that, I think it’s quite not a good or healthy thing to get into with designers to expect them to do work for free. Which tends to happen a bit if you’re a student and that’s good, if you’re getting sort of creative practice and learning to formulate ideas as a designer. But an ongoing kind of pattern of not paying designers for their work, because people think that it’s just an easy job or that it’s creative, therefore it should be fun, it’s a huge misconception. Kaitlyn might be feeling like a little bit exploited for their skills. It’s a job, that is labour that needs to be paid.
My ideal brief would be obviously something where you’re working quite closely with the client or the audience that you’re making work for. I really like to involve people in a really personal way, so that they help kind of push that ideations process as well. So, an ideal brief would be definitely be involving as some sort of collaboration between me and the client. And I also find briefs that I’ve had before that have been really great are the ones with clients that are open to taking visual risks with things. There are certain projects, sometimes they feel that the stakeholder tends to be a little bit nervous about being adventurous with graphic design, and it’s always the more rewarding briefs that actually give you a lot of creative freedom to be experimental, so those are the dream ones.
Kaitlyn
I really like to work on briefs where the client and I, collaborate closely together to design the project. I don’t really like it when someone just hands me a brief and they just expect the end product a few weeks down the road. It’s like we don’t really talk in between. I tend not to work for clients like that and try not to take on briefs like that. I would just really like to work on more paid work that align with my personal practice and other curiosities. That would be really awesome, because currently a lot of the projects I’m doing are kind of… well essentially free in the sense that i don't always get paid for the full number of hours I spend on a project and it would be nice to get paid more to do like stuff that I really like — but that’s quite unrealistic. I do definitely prefer working with collaborative clients. Similar to Nina, we all have the same dreams as designers. Like having a space to express creatively, take risks in a sense and not work on something that’s just overly commercial or safe in the industry.
Nina
Yeah, and just to add that, I think it’s quite not a good or healthy thing to get into with designers to expect them to do work for free. Which tends to happen a bit if you’re a student and that’s good, if you’re getting sort of creative practice and learning to formulate ideas as a designer. But an ongoing kind of pattern of not paying designers for their work, because people think that it’s just an easy job or that it’s creative, therefore it should be fun, it’s a huge misconception. Kaitlyn might be feeling like a little bit exploited for their skills. It’s a job, that is labour that needs to be paid.
What has been your favourite project in your design career so far?
Nina
Well, it’s hard to pick a favourite because I’ve had quite a few recently that have been really exciting. But my professional research project at RMIT was sort of the beginning of some really exciting projects for me. So, at the end of last year I did a project that was looking at why there are gender and cultural biases in the canon of graphic design and the way that history has been recorded. And I did a series of interviews with some very interesting design educators and designers in different countries that incorporate this questioning into their practice, so that was very eye opening, that whole research project, and from there it sort of led to some other opportunities where I was able to connect and explore this topic in a variety of different ways. Which has really started to become part of the foundation of my practice as a graphic designer. So, I would say that project has been one of the most exciting in recent months. I’ve had a few projects that are exciting for various different reasons.
Kaitlyn
It’s hard to pick a favourite cause I’ve had a lot of favourites the past year. I guess one of my more notable projects would be this publication I did called ‘Other’ which sort of started all of this and connected me to Nina and got me in the #worldwewant - panel discussion. But very recently for client or paid work, I was invited to design a zine called ‘Keywords in participatory design’, which was an extension of a conference on Participatory Design that happened in 2020.
I started working on this late last year and recently just launched it publicly this month, which was super exciting. For me, I find that this was one of my favourites because of what I learned from it. I just enjoyed how we as a team interacted with each other and the way we collaborated, because all of us were from different parts of the world and it was interesting to go through that process of working together through basically email. Because we’ve never actually met each other, even on video calls. And even though I didn’t contribute anything to the writing, and I was just responsible for the design part. We were all listed as equal contributors in the book, so like in the ISBN we were all listed as co-authors. I think I really learnt a lot through that about ownership and credit, and how we behave as people and designers. The sort of unnecessary hierarchy we create through seeing certain roles as more important in a project than others, when everyone has contributed something to the end result. So, I think I learnt a lot from that on how we credit people and how we take ownership of the things we make.
Well, it’s hard to pick a favourite because I’ve had quite a few recently that have been really exciting. But my professional research project at RMIT was sort of the beginning of some really exciting projects for me. So, at the end of last year I did a project that was looking at why there are gender and cultural biases in the canon of graphic design and the way that history has been recorded. And I did a series of interviews with some very interesting design educators and designers in different countries that incorporate this questioning into their practice, so that was very eye opening, that whole research project, and from there it sort of led to some other opportunities where I was able to connect and explore this topic in a variety of different ways. Which has really started to become part of the foundation of my practice as a graphic designer. So, I would say that project has been one of the most exciting in recent months. I’ve had a few projects that are exciting for various different reasons.
Kaitlyn
It’s hard to pick a favourite cause I’ve had a lot of favourites the past year. I guess one of my more notable projects would be this publication I did called ‘Other’ which sort of started all of this and connected me to Nina and got me in the #worldwewant - panel discussion. But very recently for client or paid work, I was invited to design a zine called ‘Keywords in participatory design’, which was an extension of a conference on Participatory Design that happened in 2020.
I started working on this late last year and recently just launched it publicly this month, which was super exciting. For me, I find that this was one of my favourites because of what I learned from it. I just enjoyed how we as a team interacted with each other and the way we collaborated, because all of us were from different parts of the world and it was interesting to go through that process of working together through basically email. Because we’ve never actually met each other, even on video calls. And even though I didn’t contribute anything to the writing, and I was just responsible for the design part. We were all listed as equal contributors in the book, so like in the ISBN we were all listed as co-authors. I think I really learnt a lot through that about ownership and credit, and how we behave as people and designers. The sort of unnecessary hierarchy we create through seeing certain roles as more important in a project than others, when everyone has contributed something to the end result. So, I think I learnt a lot from that on how we credit people and how we take ownership of the things we make.
Elaborate on your process a bit, how do you find clients? Then once you have a client, how do you complete a job, and what steps do you undertake throughout the process?
Nina
I’ve been fairly lucky in that my experience as an arts worker has connected me to a community of artists and writers and other designers in Australia. I’m quite connected still to that community, so all of my research and design related projects has come to be me through the person contacting me, which I recognise is a very fortunate position to be in. Having a lot of interesting projects coming up because of that networking that I have done and because of people sharing my work from previous projects. I consider that to be really fortunate because a lot of designers aren’t necessarily in that position and they have been responding to job advertisement, or they are applying for full time jobs. I would really like to have a more stable full-time job. I find freelancing can be quite stressful because you don’t know when the next job is going to come. But it seems that at the moment I’m getting some interesting opportunities that are kind of continuously coming to me.
And in terms of the process of like how do I start and complete a job. I tend to start off by initiating a meeting with the client first. Where similar to this, we can have a conversation about what it is that they are needing help with to get a sense of the brief. If they don’t have a fully formed brief yet, having regular meetings with them is really important to developing a brief. So that you really understand their needs and how you can fulfill that in a design capacity. And from there I will begin to start to sort of like ideate in terms of collecting ideas, maybe doing some readings and researching. I usually use the platform called Arena to save a lot of research ideas around a design project. And then from there I will just start to draw and sketch things, whether that’s just on a piece of paper or straight into the computer. I’m tending to find now more so, drawing and printing things out is really vital. So, I’m trying to do that a bit more than going straight to digital. Then, from there it’s just a process of sort of like refining and editing and going back and forth until you get to a resolved end point. Usually, you’ll go through that process a few times with the client because they will have feedback. It’s quite rare for someone to come back and say, oh, this is prefect, like well-done straightway. They’re going to have things that they want to contribute. So, it’s sort of like this back-and-forth process until you get to a resolution.
Kaitlyn
I guess I’m in quite a similar position as Nina as well, because I haven’t really throughout my career, actively looked for clients and jobs. Just because I’ve been studying full time for the last couple years, I don’t really have time to do freelance work unless it’s a client or a project that I’m really excited about or really want to do. But I would say that most of my work comes from social media, like someone sees my work through my instagram page or through word of mouth, and some through publicity; through some awards that I’ve won. That’s pretty much it. I’m very privileged in that sense that I haven’t had to sift through endless job listings, that wouldn’t be fun. But I would definitely have to do that once I graduate, because I’m not studying anymore, and I need to earn a living and support myself.
For my process, when I do have client work. How do I complete it? Well…, I guess my motivation to complete the job is very much determined by the deadline they give me. My process, I would say varies slightly for each project, I’m a very unsystematic person and I tend to just wing it. It’s like the same process you would do with university assignments; things like ideating, doing some research, and then of course drafting prototypes. I also like to send a lot of drafts to my clients, like every step of the process. But I’ll firstly talk them through the concept before I go ahead and actually do the actual graphics or the design. The drafting process I guess would be the longest part for me in a client project. Because it always goes back and forth — receiving feedback, “what do you think?” — and then I’ll make amendments based on that. Then, finalise it and send it off and… get paid. Basically, that’s the gist of my process.
Nina
Yeah, Kaitlyn and I are quite active on social media. Some designers are, and some designers aren’t. I find that instagram is a really powerful tool for graphic designers to promote that to use as a folio to show their work and work in progress. It also brings in clients, a lot of designers use it for that reason, which is probably part of the reason why we’ve had people approach us rather than the other way around.
I’ve been fairly lucky in that my experience as an arts worker has connected me to a community of artists and writers and other designers in Australia. I’m quite connected still to that community, so all of my research and design related projects has come to be me through the person contacting me, which I recognise is a very fortunate position to be in. Having a lot of interesting projects coming up because of that networking that I have done and because of people sharing my work from previous projects. I consider that to be really fortunate because a lot of designers aren’t necessarily in that position and they have been responding to job advertisement, or they are applying for full time jobs. I would really like to have a more stable full-time job. I find freelancing can be quite stressful because you don’t know when the next job is going to come. But it seems that at the moment I’m getting some interesting opportunities that are kind of continuously coming to me.
And in terms of the process of like how do I start and complete a job. I tend to start off by initiating a meeting with the client first. Where similar to this, we can have a conversation about what it is that they are needing help with to get a sense of the brief. If they don’t have a fully formed brief yet, having regular meetings with them is really important to developing a brief. So that you really understand their needs and how you can fulfill that in a design capacity. And from there I will begin to start to sort of like ideate in terms of collecting ideas, maybe doing some readings and researching. I usually use the platform called Arena to save a lot of research ideas around a design project. And then from there I will just start to draw and sketch things, whether that’s just on a piece of paper or straight into the computer. I’m tending to find now more so, drawing and printing things out is really vital. So, I’m trying to do that a bit more than going straight to digital. Then, from there it’s just a process of sort of like refining and editing and going back and forth until you get to a resolved end point. Usually, you’ll go through that process a few times with the client because they will have feedback. It’s quite rare for someone to come back and say, oh, this is prefect, like well-done straightway. They’re going to have things that they want to contribute. So, it’s sort of like this back-and-forth process until you get to a resolution.
Kaitlyn
I guess I’m in quite a similar position as Nina as well, because I haven’t really throughout my career, actively looked for clients and jobs. Just because I’ve been studying full time for the last couple years, I don’t really have time to do freelance work unless it’s a client or a project that I’m really excited about or really want to do. But I would say that most of my work comes from social media, like someone sees my work through my instagram page or through word of mouth, and some through publicity; through some awards that I’ve won. That’s pretty much it. I’m very privileged in that sense that I haven’t had to sift through endless job listings, that wouldn’t be fun. But I would definitely have to do that once I graduate, because I’m not studying anymore, and I need to earn a living and support myself.
For my process, when I do have client work. How do I complete it? Well…, I guess my motivation to complete the job is very much determined by the deadline they give me. My process, I would say varies slightly for each project, I’m a very unsystematic person and I tend to just wing it. It’s like the same process you would do with university assignments; things like ideating, doing some research, and then of course drafting prototypes. I also like to send a lot of drafts to my clients, like every step of the process. But I’ll firstly talk them through the concept before I go ahead and actually do the actual graphics or the design. The drafting process I guess would be the longest part for me in a client project. Because it always goes back and forth — receiving feedback, “what do you think?” — and then I’ll make amendments based on that. Then, finalise it and send it off and… get paid. Basically, that’s the gist of my process.
Nina
Yeah, Kaitlyn and I are quite active on social media. Some designers are, and some designers aren’t. I find that instagram is a really powerful tool for graphic designers to promote that to use as a folio to show their work and work in progress. It also brings in clients, a lot of designers use it for that reason, which is probably part of the reason why we’ve had people approach us rather than the other way around.
What would you like to see more of in design pedagogy and education?
Nina
Good question. This was kind of the research project that I did last year, which was interrogating design pedagogy and its lack of diversity. So, I would like to see design education diversifying through the faculty that they employ as well by having a range of different educators from different cultural background, and also different gender identities. I don’t think it’s possible to design well if you are only kind of receiving one perspective. And I also would like to see more interesting projects and assessments for students to be able to explore other design narratives other than something, maybe been the mainstream story for design for a little bit too long. I for one noticed that when I was studying that I didn’t really know a whole lot about the history of design in Australia or in Asian countries at all, or how those processes developed in those countries? It was always quite a Eurocentric kind of focused design story, which was important, that I acknowledge that history is part of the story of design, but there are other narratives that don’t get as much recognition. So, it would be nice to see that reflected in design pedagogy through the types of briefs and projects that they are giving students to be able to research those areas.
Kaitlyn
I think this is why me and Nina started collaborating because we both have similar values in what we would like to see more in design education — and I guess in the industry in general. I think it extends a bit further from education as well. It’s the whole of design, as a community, as an industry and as a culture as well. We definitely we need more women, more people of colour, more queer bodies; and more than just seeing them participate in the industry, there needs to be more diversity in leadership positions as well, because what’s the point if you have all these people working in the industry, but everyone who makes the decisions are just like these white cis-men. I know it's bold to say, and it’s uncomfortable to talk about race in design, that’s not something everyone’s comfortable with talking about. But I think it’s important to assess the inequalities in our system. Who we look up to, what we learn from? Who is teaching us? Who are we trying to please when we’re submitting an assessment?
I would also really like to see for design education to divert their curriculum away from capitalist means of production, especially in undergrad programs. I understand when we go to university, that we have an expectation to be ready for the industry, but design is so much more than just making things look pretty to sell and perform better in the market. We need to have subjects or courses that talk about other aspects of design which are important as well and not just what will look the best and boost the most sales for this company... more than just branding? That’s what I would like to see more of.
Good question. This was kind of the research project that I did last year, which was interrogating design pedagogy and its lack of diversity. So, I would like to see design education diversifying through the faculty that they employ as well by having a range of different educators from different cultural background, and also different gender identities. I don’t think it’s possible to design well if you are only kind of receiving one perspective. And I also would like to see more interesting projects and assessments for students to be able to explore other design narratives other than something, maybe been the mainstream story for design for a little bit too long. I for one noticed that when I was studying that I didn’t really know a whole lot about the history of design in Australia or in Asian countries at all, or how those processes developed in those countries? It was always quite a Eurocentric kind of focused design story, which was important, that I acknowledge that history is part of the story of design, but there are other narratives that don’t get as much recognition. So, it would be nice to see that reflected in design pedagogy through the types of briefs and projects that they are giving students to be able to research those areas.
Kaitlyn
I think this is why me and Nina started collaborating because we both have similar values in what we would like to see more in design education — and I guess in the industry in general. I think it extends a bit further from education as well. It’s the whole of design, as a community, as an industry and as a culture as well. We definitely we need more women, more people of colour, more queer bodies; and more than just seeing them participate in the industry, there needs to be more diversity in leadership positions as well, because what’s the point if you have all these people working in the industry, but everyone who makes the decisions are just like these white cis-men. I know it's bold to say, and it’s uncomfortable to talk about race in design, that’s not something everyone’s comfortable with talking about. But I think it’s important to assess the inequalities in our system. Who we look up to, what we learn from? Who is teaching us? Who are we trying to please when we’re submitting an assessment?
I would also really like to see for design education to divert their curriculum away from capitalist means of production, especially in undergrad programs. I understand when we go to university, that we have an expectation to be ready for the industry, but design is so much more than just making things look pretty to sell and perform better in the market. We need to have subjects or courses that talk about other aspects of design which are important as well and not just what will look the best and boost the most sales for this company... more than just branding? That’s what I would like to see more of.
If you could say anything to clients, what would it be?
Nina
It’s kind of difficult question to answer because the clients are going to come to you with a range of different needs. And they’re going to have a range of different goals for what you’re working on. Like designing a website for exhibition is going to be very different to designing a publication like say a research project of some sort. They have different goals and needs that need to be addressed in those projects. But I think in general, what I’d probably say to a client is I guess is to trust the visual medium, that it’s going to deliver your message really clearly and design is really powerful. That it’s okay to take some visual risks when delivering your message.
Kaitlyn
I agree with Nina, it’s obvious every client would have a different sort of need and a different sort of concern. But for me, what I have observed the most from working — so far — as a freelance designer. I would tell clients to maybe be a little bit nicer to us and give us realistic deadlines, because very often I have people coming to me and saying, “we need it by this day” and it’s like a rush project. Then there’s always this very toxic assumption that because we can rush your project, it doesn’t mean we should. We can work all night, even on the weekends, but it’s not humane, nobody does this in regular full-time jobs. So, why should freelancers do this for you, just because you didn’t adhere to your own timeline?
Nina
Yeah, that’s a really good point to mention to non-design audience that designers aren’t wizards. They don’t just snap their fingers and then come up with something that looks really amazing. That takes a lot of hard work and maybe drawing. Like going back to the drawing board and re-sketching and it takes so much of fine turning and finessing all of that. The reason you see a piece of graphic design that looks really amazing is because the designer has been working so meticulously on that. And good design takes time.
#worldwewant
It’s kind of difficult question to answer because the clients are going to come to you with a range of different needs. And they’re going to have a range of different goals for what you’re working on. Like designing a website for exhibition is going to be very different to designing a publication like say a research project of some sort. They have different goals and needs that need to be addressed in those projects. But I think in general, what I’d probably say to a client is I guess is to trust the visual medium, that it’s going to deliver your message really clearly and design is really powerful. That it’s okay to take some visual risks when delivering your message.
Kaitlyn
I agree with Nina, it’s obvious every client would have a different sort of need and a different sort of concern. But for me, what I have observed the most from working — so far — as a freelance designer. I would tell clients to maybe be a little bit nicer to us and give us realistic deadlines, because very often I have people coming to me and saying, “we need it by this day” and it’s like a rush project. Then there’s always this very toxic assumption that because we can rush your project, it doesn’t mean we should. We can work all night, even on the weekends, but it’s not humane, nobody does this in regular full-time jobs. So, why should freelancers do this for you, just because you didn’t adhere to your own timeline?
Nina
Yeah, that’s a really good point to mention to non-design audience that designers aren’t wizards. They don’t just snap their fingers and then come up with something that looks really amazing. That takes a lot of hard work and maybe drawing. Like going back to the drawing board and re-sketching and it takes so much of fine turning and finessing all of that. The reason you see a piece of graphic design that looks really amazing is because the designer has been working so meticulously on that. And good design takes time.
#worldwewant
Can you give us a brief overview of the #worldwewant project? How did the #worldwewant project begin?
Nina
Yes, actually this project wasn’t started by Kaitlyn and myself. That was actually an initiative that was started by the school of design at RMIT, and it was in response to a lot of social justice, discussions and movements that were happening last year in 2020. And the school decided that they were going to start at this series of programming called #worldwewant. It was a way to invite speakers and students to contribute to a discussion on just radical ideas in design practice, about looking at ways to maybe diversify and to be more equal and to share from a range of different voices and perspectives. So that’s really what this school of design has been doing, and I think at the moment, they plan to do one of these #worldwewant events per semester. So, Kaitlyn did the one that started at semester 2 of 2020, which was at the end of last year. And I was involved in the one of semester 1 this year (2021).
Yes, actually this project wasn’t started by Kaitlyn and myself. That was actually an initiative that was started by the school of design at RMIT, and it was in response to a lot of social justice, discussions and movements that were happening last year in 2020. And the school decided that they were going to start at this series of programming called #worldwewant. It was a way to invite speakers and students to contribute to a discussion on just radical ideas in design practice, about looking at ways to maybe diversify and to be more equal and to share from a range of different voices and perspectives. So that’s really what this school of design has been doing, and I think at the moment, they plan to do one of these #worldwewant events per semester. So, Kaitlyn did the one that started at semester 2 of 2020, which was at the end of last year. And I was involved in the one of semester 1 this year (2021).
How did you two come to collaborate?
Nina
Yeah, Kaitlyn will be able to answer a little bit as well. I watched Kaitlyn’s presentation for the #worldwewant’ event, which was at the end of last year. I think it was in October last year. And it was called ‘Designing within Discomfort’, and Kaitlyn presented her publication, ‘Other’. She was briefly speaking about some of the frustrations that she felt as a designer and also as a person of colour in the design community and she wasn’t see enough people from different cultural backgrounds being represented in design. I was really impressed by her talk. And I was really excited because I was doing my research project at the same time and it was looking at the exact same things and these frustrations that we were feeling as women in the design industry and noticing that people are really underrepresented.
So, I contacted Kaitlyn – through instagram actually. I’m not sure at that stage if I had even asked her to collaborate with me, I just told her that I really liked what she had done, and I asked Kaitlyn if she’d be interested in designing a book with me, about contemporary women graphic designers in Australia. Because I’ve noticed that there wasn’t one and I thought it would be a nice opportunity for us to work on something, and to also meet, talk and write about young contemporary women graphic designers in our community in Australia. That’s how we met.
Kaitlyn
In the beginning we actually connected more through Fayen, cause I told her (Nina) when I did my project ‘Other’, it was a fictional thing — (I wasn’t actually going to make a real publication that I was going to sell or make a podcast on). But I was really into the idea of like, what if I actually started a podcast and talked about these topics that I was talking about in this fictional Zine. So, Fayen connected me to Nina, said that I should really talk to Nina about doing this podcast. So, I talked to her (Nina) and said “like yeah, we should really start an episode,” but it sadly didn’t end up happening. Then we ended up working on this publication instead like further down the line. That’s kind of like how we met and how we came to collaborate on this because we both have very similar values and passions in what we would like to see change in design. And for me, change in mainstream media in general.
Yeah, Kaitlyn will be able to answer a little bit as well. I watched Kaitlyn’s presentation for the #worldwewant’ event, which was at the end of last year. I think it was in October last year. And it was called ‘Designing within Discomfort’, and Kaitlyn presented her publication, ‘Other’. She was briefly speaking about some of the frustrations that she felt as a designer and also as a person of colour in the design community and she wasn’t see enough people from different cultural backgrounds being represented in design. I was really impressed by her talk. And I was really excited because I was doing my research project at the same time and it was looking at the exact same things and these frustrations that we were feeling as women in the design industry and noticing that people are really underrepresented.
So, I contacted Kaitlyn – through instagram actually. I’m not sure at that stage if I had even asked her to collaborate with me, I just told her that I really liked what she had done, and I asked Kaitlyn if she’d be interested in designing a book with me, about contemporary women graphic designers in Australia. Because I’ve noticed that there wasn’t one and I thought it would be a nice opportunity for us to work on something, and to also meet, talk and write about young contemporary women graphic designers in our community in Australia. That’s how we met.
Kaitlyn
In the beginning we actually connected more through Fayen, cause I told her (Nina) when I did my project ‘Other’, it was a fictional thing — (I wasn’t actually going to make a real publication that I was going to sell or make a podcast on). But I was really into the idea of like, what if I actually started a podcast and talked about these topics that I was talking about in this fictional Zine. So, Fayen connected me to Nina, said that I should really talk to Nina about doing this podcast. So, I talked to her (Nina) and said “like yeah, we should really start an episode,” but it sadly didn’t end up happening. Then we ended up working on this publication instead like further down the line. That’s kind of like how we met and how we came to collaborate on this because we both have very similar values and passions in what we would like to see change in design. And for me, change in mainstream media in general.
What shared values do you have that drive your work?
Nina
Yeah, I mostly I just want to see the design industry becoming a more even playing field. For people that have historically not been recognised, or I guess acknowledged for their contributions to design，we want to see more of these people holding positions of leadership and being acknowledged for the work that they can contribute to this space rather than just the gatekeepers kind of dictating who is valued in this community. Because there’s a lot of different voices and that’s why design is so exciting. You get a richness of ideas when you have more than just one perspective, and that’s what our shared values are, that’s what we are trying to incorporate by doing this book project as well.
Kaitlyn
Yea, I don’t think I have much to add because those are exactly it.
Yeah, I mostly I just want to see the design industry becoming a more even playing field. For people that have historically not been recognised, or I guess acknowledged for their contributions to design，we want to see more of these people holding positions of leadership and being acknowledged for the work that they can contribute to this space rather than just the gatekeepers kind of dictating who is valued in this community. Because there’s a lot of different voices and that’s why design is so exciting. You get a richness of ideas when you have more than just one perspective, and that’s what our shared values are, that’s what we are trying to incorporate by doing this book project as well.
Kaitlyn
Yea, I don’t think I have much to add because those are exactly it.
If you don’t mind sharing, what personal experience do you have that motivates this research and work?
Nina
I guess life was becoming much more intertwined with feminism. And it’s an area and it’s a way of living and a way of thinking that really, I think is a part of my identity as a woman and also as someone who is culturally diverse as well. I think feminism made sense to me and a lot of like the things that they speak about in that area of thinking and doing. You need to be inclusive and that you also need to understand that everyone’s experiences are not going to be the same as yours. So those areas I think I tried to really apply to my life a lot. I also try to apply that to my design practice too. Yeah, I think that’s a very personal experience for me that I think is really quite influential on my design practice.
Kaitlyn
I think that being a woman, in this body, with my visa status as an international student residing in Australia is a motivation enough for me. It’s not like one particular experience, it’s a frustration that I’ve sort of inherited from being in this country and being who I am. Because I know that I work really hard within my field, and it scares me, and I have become very aware of because of my body and the way I look, the industry might not recognise my work and might not give me the same respect they give someone else.
I have to mention also that through this research and also in recent events, I’ve been a little conflicted and confused. I realised that I’ve always been recognised as “Australian” when it comes to my achievements and my design; but the fact is, that I am not, I have no idea what to make of that, because my experiences outside of design has never seen me as being Australian but being Chinese Malaysian. It’s just a compilation of all those different parts of my identity that really frustrates me. Being in this world... that motivates my research and my work.
I guess life was becoming much more intertwined with feminism. And it’s an area and it’s a way of living and a way of thinking that really, I think is a part of my identity as a woman and also as someone who is culturally diverse as well. I think feminism made sense to me and a lot of like the things that they speak about in that area of thinking and doing. You need to be inclusive and that you also need to understand that everyone’s experiences are not going to be the same as yours. So those areas I think I tried to really apply to my life a lot. I also try to apply that to my design practice too. Yeah, I think that’s a very personal experience for me that I think is really quite influential on my design practice.
Kaitlyn
I think that being a woman, in this body, with my visa status as an international student residing in Australia is a motivation enough for me. It’s not like one particular experience, it’s a frustration that I’ve sort of inherited from being in this country and being who I am. Because I know that I work really hard within my field, and it scares me, and I have become very aware of because of my body and the way I look, the industry might not recognise my work and might not give me the same respect they give someone else.
I have to mention also that through this research and also in recent events, I’ve been a little conflicted and confused. I realised that I’ve always been recognised as “Australian” when it comes to my achievements and my design; but the fact is, that I am not, I have no idea what to make of that, because my experiences outside of design has never seen me as being Australian but being Chinese Malaysian. It’s just a compilation of all those different parts of my identity that really frustrates me. Being in this world... that motivates my research and my work.
What opportunities have come out of this project? (maybe a good time to introduce the book). What is the goal of this publication?
Nina
It’s quite in its infancy at the moment. We are still in the process of collecting ideas. The main goal for us – that also includes Maddy as well –was to collect and conduct a series of interviews with different designers who either identify as woman, transgender or non-binary in Australia. Because I had noticed that there wasn’t a publication that really highlighted these people, in a contemporary way. I don’t know of many trans designers in Australia, I’m sure that they exist, and I would like to see them have a platform to showcase their contributions. That is kind of the core goal of the publication. We are going to just start off by doing some interviews and see where that leads us as well. We’ve got a list of maybe over 20 different designers; we might not speak to all of them. I guess we are going to compile the contents, which is the interview and the conversation we have with these people. I think the design of the publication will come after that, based on the content we gather. We have a goal in mind of getting it printed and published by early next year to have it showcase at Melbourne Design Week in 2022.
It’s quite in its infancy at the moment. We are still in the process of collecting ideas. The main goal for us – that also includes Maddy as well –was to collect and conduct a series of interviews with different designers who either identify as woman, transgender or non-binary in Australia. Because I had noticed that there wasn’t a publication that really highlighted these people, in a contemporary way. I don’t know of many trans designers in Australia, I’m sure that they exist, and I would like to see them have a platform to showcase their contributions. That is kind of the core goal of the publication. We are going to just start off by doing some interviews and see where that leads us as well. We’ve got a list of maybe over 20 different designers; we might not speak to all of them. I guess we are going to compile the contents, which is the interview and the conversation we have with these people. I think the design of the publication will come after that, based on the content we gather. We have a goal in mind of getting it printed and published by early next year to have it showcase at Melbourne Design Week in 2022.
Do you have some candidates yet?
Nina
Yeah, we’ve got about 20. Just as I said, It’s still quite early in, it’s at its infancy at the moment and we are still in the process of contacting people.
Yeah, we’ve got about 20. Just as I said, It’s still quite early in, it’s at its infancy at the moment and we are still in the process of contacting people.
How do you see this driving change?
Nina
I think there’s a few ways of encouraging diversity in design. That is one of the ways is through awards and who is awarded for their work. And another way is through publications and the kinds of materials that people are putting out there and sharing. This was sort of an avenue for us that was quite accessible, and within our powers to do something. I think publications can be really powerful tools to share diverse work with people. There are other ways with design conferences, symposiums and workshop that explore this kind of ideas. Those are the main ways designers congregate to discuss those ideas.
Kaitlyn
Yeah, I think just publishing something as simple as this, –even though we are just a couple of students in the Master’s program at RMIT – It’s still one step closer – to diversifying the printed publications that are out there on graphic design. Like a lot of it is just dwelling on old history, like the classic famous designers in America or in Europe. By doing this, it would be one step closer to changing that.
I think there’s a few ways of encouraging diversity in design. That is one of the ways is through awards and who is awarded for their work. And another way is through publications and the kinds of materials that people are putting out there and sharing. This was sort of an avenue for us that was quite accessible, and within our powers to do something. I think publications can be really powerful tools to share diverse work with people. There are other ways with design conferences, symposiums and workshop that explore this kind of ideas. Those are the main ways designers congregate to discuss those ideas.
Kaitlyn
Yeah, I think just publishing something as simple as this, –even though we are just a couple of students in the Master’s program at RMIT – It’s still one step closer – to diversifying the printed publications that are out there on graphic design. Like a lot of it is just dwelling on old history, like the classic famous designers in America or in Europe. By doing this, it would be one step closer to changing that.
In the future, how would you like to see the learning from this research and work manifest in the industry?
Nina
I’d like to see it become more of a normal thing. I think that through publishing and the more kind of contributions you have in this conversation, the more normalise it’s going to be. We’re doing this book because women are underrepresented, it shouldn’t be that way. Because in fact, I think there’s actually more female design graduates than there are males. They actually make up more of the industry then they get recognised for. So, it would be really nice to see that not become such a big problem anymore, and that it’s actually just an equal industry.
Kaitlyn
Yeah, just like everything Nina said, definitely it was shocking to me reading the design census (by AIGA) and also some work by other designers who explored similar topics. It’s like a majority of us are female, but why are we only (like what in the AIGA design said) there was only 11% of females holding leadership positions or something like that in 2019? That was just so shocking to me, because we make up such a big part of the industry. But why is no one recognising women for graphic design work? I have never heard in my entire design education; a lecturer brings up and really talk about and focus on the work of a female designer. It’s always been white men from corporate America or some Swiss designer. it just didn’t make sense to me, why it was like that. I would just like to see people be more active in closing that gap. Not just being aware but really assessing what we do to contribute to this, I guess. Just be more aware and like Understand that there is still an inequity, we are not pass being completely not gender biased. There is still work to do. I like to just make people more aware in 2021 that there is still a lot of inequity within every industry and not just design.
I’d like to see it become more of a normal thing. I think that through publishing and the more kind of contributions you have in this conversation, the more normalise it’s going to be. We’re doing this book because women are underrepresented, it shouldn’t be that way. Because in fact, I think there’s actually more female design graduates than there are males. They actually make up more of the industry then they get recognised for. So, it would be really nice to see that not become such a big problem anymore, and that it’s actually just an equal industry.
Kaitlyn
Yeah, just like everything Nina said, definitely it was shocking to me reading the design census (by AIGA) and also some work by other designers who explored similar topics. It’s like a majority of us are female, but why are we only (like what in the AIGA design said) there was only 11% of females holding leadership positions or something like that in 2019? That was just so shocking to me, because we make up such a big part of the industry. But why is no one recognising women for graphic design work? I have never heard in my entire design education; a lecturer brings up and really talk about and focus on the work of a female designer. It’s always been white men from corporate America or some Swiss designer. it just didn’t make sense to me, why it was like that. I would just like to see people be more active in closing that gap. Not just being aware but really assessing what we do to contribute to this, I guess. Just be more aware and like Understand that there is still an inequity, we are not pass being completely not gender biased. There is still work to do. I like to just make people more aware in 2021 that there is still a lot of inequity within every industry and not just design.
Lastly, if you could say anything to emerging artists and designers, what would it be?
Nina
I’m not an emerging artist so I feel like I’m not sure if I could give them advice. But I would say to emerging designers, being one myself, that it’s ok to be challenged and that’s actually where real growth happens when you really challenge yourself by asking difficult questions, that need answers and discussion around. So, I think it would be my biggest piece of advice to people would be to not be afraid of doing things like that and to ask those tough questions that are going to lead to a deeper realisation and a deeper design practice.
Kaitlyn
When dealing with with a lot of uncomfortable topics within the social and political issue realm, you will get a lot of push back from people and you will constantly question yourself, like you know “am I being too dramatic?”, “Am I being fuelled by personal emotions and anger and blowing all these things out of context?”. My advice for people and emerging designers who are working within that field, is to believe in yourself and not doubt yourself. Keep going even though everyone tells you that this does not have a place in the mainstream design industry.
Also don’t compare yourself to other people’s success. I guess would be like an important thing for– I think– any sort of graduate from all fields.
I’m not an emerging artist so I feel like I’m not sure if I could give them advice. But I would say to emerging designers, being one myself, that it’s ok to be challenged and that’s actually where real growth happens when you really challenge yourself by asking difficult questions, that need answers and discussion around. So, I think it would be my biggest piece of advice to people would be to not be afraid of doing things like that and to ask those tough questions that are going to lead to a deeper realisation and a deeper design practice.
Kaitlyn
When dealing with with a lot of uncomfortable topics within the social and political issue realm, you will get a lot of push back from people and you will constantly question yourself, like you know “am I being too dramatic?”, “Am I being fuelled by personal emotions and anger and blowing all these things out of context?”. My advice for people and emerging designers who are working within that field, is to believe in yourself and not doubt yourself. Keep going even though everyone tells you that this does not have a place in the mainstream design industry.
Also don’t compare yourself to other people’s success. I guess would be like an important thing for– I think– any sort of graduate from all fields.
About the designers
Nina Gibbes is a graphic designer with an interest in research, feminism, commoning, publication design and collaborative practice. She is currently exploring various ways that collaboration can inform a design process, with a particular focus on design workshops as a space for sharing of knowledge and creative transformation. She has a particular interest in sharing and highlighting work from designers who have historically been under acknowledged in design history such as the practices of women and designers of colour.
Website | Portfolio | Instagram
Kaitlyn Chai is a Malaysian-Chinese multidisciplinary designer and illustrator based in Naarm (Melbourne), Australia. She is currently completing her Master’s in Communications Design at RMIT University while running her freelance practice. Where play and research intersect, her work manifests in material and virtual worlds. Her practice focuses on using design as a tool for storytelling and a platform for critique. She has been interested in initiating more projects that explore lived experiences in relation to race, gender, identity, and culture.
Website | Linktree | Instagram